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Moroveus
147 posts Member
January 18, 2018 4:44PM
Is there a specific "critical chance" rate at which Critical Damage becomes more beneficial than Offense? I don't fully understand the mechanics of the "Offense" mods.
evanbio
1505 posts Member
January 18, 2018 4:48PM
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For some reason, I seem to recall the number being around 40%.
Offense mods are probably most prevalent with a DN lead. That never really became "meta" however. Probably due to most players farming crit damage mods for speed secondaries, and not wanting to "waste" them.mlb1399
674 posts Member
January 18, 2018 4:58PM edited January 2018
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It would be:
Offense bonus vs cd increase times cc chance
So 10% offense bonus < 30% cd increase above ~33.334%
DarkPiece
108 posts Member
January 18, 2018 5:00PM
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With crit immunity almost everywhere now I think offense is more relevant more base damage. But it’s just choice
Mobewan
702 posts Member
January 18, 2018 5:04PM edited January 2018
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@evanbio
The reality is that most characters at max gear can reach 50% crit chance quite easily.Characters like Raid Han, where i have 65% crit chance + 10% from zeta, plus 10% from r2, so he seems to crit on every attack. Similary, CLS in offense mode can reach 100% crit chance. Biggs special attack uses 3 people to attack all with 100% crit chance.
So for high crit chance characters like this, crit damage mods actually give them much more than offense mods can do.
Post edited by Mobewan on
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Moroveus
147 posts Member
January 18, 2018 9:01PM
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@Mobewan - thank you! That was a clear and succinct explanation. I appreciate it!
CoastalJames
2971 posts Member
January 18, 2018 9:29PM
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Moroveus wrote: »
@Mobewan - thank you! That was a clear and succinct explanation. I appreciate it!
That's the way @Mobewan rolls - always helpful, sensible and informative.
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Wearesyke
218 posts Member
January 19, 2018 4:58AM
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I haven't unlocked crit damage mods. Way too much to do for jawas to be worked on. I have found that modding a toon like wedge or Raid han with an offense set with 2 offense primaries and a crit damage triangle does basically the same damage in the end
Anakin_Skywalker
See AlsoKit Reveal - Boss Nass1801 posts Member
January 19, 2018 5:40AM
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Depends on your CC.and whether you have CD primary on triangle.
1) No CD triangle (150% CD & 10% Offense vs. 180% CD)
Well the expected damage output of the former is 1.1 times the original one.The original expected value for damage
= Base dmg + (CC × 0.5× Base dmg).Offense mod make it 1.1×
so
= 1.1 Base dmg + (CC× 0.5×1.1×Base dmg)
= 1.1 Base dmg + (CC×0.55×Base dmg)CD mod makes it like this
=Base dmg + (CC× 0.8× Base dmg)Which is bigger?Situational
Offense mod case - CD mod case
= 0.1 Base dmg - (CC ×0.25 × Base dmg)
if this is >0, Offense wins. <0, CD wins
so if 0.1>CC×0.25
in other words, if your crit chance is lower than 40%, offense mod is better.
If crit chance is 40%: indifferent.
If CC is over 40%, CD mod.
But this is when your triangle primary is not CD2) Your triangle primary is 36% CD
(186% CD & 10% Offense vs. 216% CD)
Well the expected damage output of the former is 1.1 times the original one.The original expected value for damage
= Base dmg + (CC × 0.86× Base dmg).Offense mod make it 1.1×
so
= 1.1 Base dmg + (CC× 0.86×1.1×Base dmg)
= 1.1 Base dmg + (CC×0.946×Base dmg)CD mod makes it like this
=Base dmg + (CC× 1.16× Base dmg)Which is bigger?Situational
Offense mod case - CD mod case
= 0.1 Base dmg - (CC ×0.214× Base dmg)
if this is >0, Offense wins. <0, CD wins
so if 0.1>CC×0.214
in other words, if your crit chance is lower than (100/214)*100%, offense mod is better.
If crit chance is (100/214)*100%: indifferent.
If CC is over (100/214)*100%, CD mod.
this is when your triangle primary is 36% CD1
Anakin_Skywalker
1801 posts Member
January 19, 2018 5:41AM edited January 2018
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(100/214) * 100% is about 46.73%.
So to sum it up:
1) your triangle primary =/= CD
then 40% is the turning point.
If your overall CC is over 40%, CD set is better. If lower, Offense set is better2) your triangle primary = 36% CD
then 46.73% is the turning point.
If your overall CC is over 46.73%, CD set us better. If lower, Offense set is better3) your triangle primary = 1~4* CD primary,
then somewhere between 40% and 46.73% is your turning point.Anakin_Skywalker
1801 posts Member
January 19, 2018 5:56AM
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Which mean for characters like R2, Offense set is better than CD set, unless when under Jedi Rey lead. And those characters who rely on special damage, generally special CC is tad lower than physical CC so offense mod for them as well.
DedrickRogue
924 posts Member
January 19, 2018 6:25AM
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Anakin_Skywalker wrote: »
(100/214) * 100% is about 46.73%.
So to sum it up:
1) your triangle primary =/= CD
then 40% is the turning point.
If your overall CC is over 40%, CD set is better. If lower, Offense set is better2) your triangle primary = 36% CD
then 46.73% is the turning point.
If your overall CC is over 46.73%, CD set us better. If lower, Offense set is better3) your triangle primary = 1~4* CD primary,
then somewhere between 40% and 46.73% is your turning point.I'm not exactly the best at math, but I think your numbers are reversed.
You're saying assuming an even potential Offense, if you deal more Crit Damage, you need a higher Crit Chance to break even, which strikes me as backwards. You'd be able to Crit hit less often since the extra 36% Crit damage would make up for some missed critical hits, not the opposite.
Either I'm reading this wrong or you were supposed to subtract the 6.73% from 40, not add it.
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Anakin_Skywalker
1801 posts Member
January 19, 2018 6:27AM edited January 2018
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DedrickRogue wrote: »
Anakin_Skywalker wrote: »
(100/214) * 100% is about 46.73%.
So to sum it up:
1) your triangle primary =/= CD
then 40% is the turning point.
If your overall CC is over 40%, CD set is better. If lower, Offense set is better2) your triangle primary = 36% CD
then 46.73% is the turning point.
If your overall CC is over 46.73%, CD set us better. If lower, Offense set is better3) your triangle primary = 1~4* CD primary,
then somewhere between 40% and 46.73% is your turning point.I'm not exactly the best at math, but I think your numbers are reversed.
You're saying assuming an even potential Offense, if you deal more Crit Damage, you need a higher Crit Chance to break even, which strikes me as backwards. You'd be able to Crit hit less often since the extra 36% Crit damage would make up for some missed critical hits, not the opposite.
Either I'm reading this wrong or you were supposed to subtract the 6.73% from 40, not add it.
Sorry but the math is right. cd primary makes cd set less worthy becuz 30% is not 30% of original cd. (not %of %) it's just +30%
I'm not good at explaining things plain and simple when the reality is not, and above explanation is the easiest way i could do
I did my best explaining it, so if you don't get it sorry I can't help that's my limit@DedrickRogue I undestand it could be counterintuitive but it's not wrong.
Best thing I can suggest is either follow the math or this:
As I said, CD bonus is not % of %
so when increased from 150% to 180%(20% increase) it's relatively a bigger impact than when boosted from 186% to 216%. (16.13% increase).
So in the latter case (with cd primary), apparently cd set gives less improvement than in former case (16.13% compared to 20%)Post edited by Anakin_Skywalker on
DedrickRogue
924 posts Member
January 19, 2018 6:48AM
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Base character has 150% CD, add a triangle it's 36% more meaning 186% CD, full set adds 30% bring CD to 216%
You're saying with a higher CD %, you also need a higher CC % to even out to offense, correct? Because that isn't how common sense says it works. You wouldn't need to Crit hit as often because your Crits that do land are doing +66% damage over a "normal" critical, which means you can land less crits to get the same total damage output.
Either way, I'm out. Too late for this much math.
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Anakin_Skywalker
1801 posts Member
January 19, 2018 6:53AM edited January 2018
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DedrickRogue wrote: »
Base character has 150% CD, add a triangle it's 36% more meaning 186% CD, full set adds 30% bring CD to 216%
You're saying with a higher CD %, you also need a higher CC % to even out to offense, correct? Because that isn't how common sense says it works. You wouldn't need to Crit hit as often because your Crits that do land are doing +66% damage over a "normal" critical, which means you can land less crits to get the same total damage output.
Either way, I'm out. Too late for this much math.
Well that common sense is wrong. Because you didn't factor in the fact that you gain 10% offense (crit / non crit) by losing extra 30%. Sorry I don't want to convince you I don't need to. But don't just assume it's wrong and express it because you think it doesn't make sense.
Edit: do it this way, ask people around you who are good at math.(and preferably know stuffs about mods of SWGOH) You don't have to figure out yourself. They will tell you I'm right. It's not really difficult math. Not even. Not even using calculus, or integral or anything near that. It's just plain and simple +/-/×/÷. Just the words I added to explain it make it look long and difficult.
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Billcarson66
852 posts Member
January 19, 2018 11:05AM edited January 2018
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Thrawn(when you don’t need him to go 1st/2nd), Tarkin, krennic, and MT all should have offense mods because of special damage. My MT has 6300 special damage and there isn’t many toons she can’t put into the yellow with her opening AOE. Add EP to that list with EP and Talzin benefitting the most because of their kit mechanics.
AnnerDoon
1353 posts Member
January 19, 2018 11:06AM
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What do offense mods have to do with special damage?
Billcarson66
852 posts Member
January 19, 2018 11:12AM
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It’s the best way to boost Special damage because offense primaries are only 5.88%. And as a whole special damage toons have low crit chance
StarWars2nd
38 posts Member
January 19, 2018 11:50AM
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Billcarson66 wrote: »
Thrawn(when you don’t need him to go 1st/2nd), Tarkin, krennic, and MT all should have offense mods because of special damage. My MT has 6300 special damage and there isn’t many toons she can’t put into the yellow with her opening AOE. Add EP to that list with EP and Talzin benefitting the most because of their kit mechanics.
You may have answered my question before i even ask it but i've recently unlocked Thrawn at 5* and im wondering what is the perfect mod setup for him?
I know its all situational but as a general over look what mods should i been aiming to get for my Thrawn?
https://swgoh.gg/u/starwars2nd/collection/
Billcarson66
852 posts Member
January 19, 2018 12:41PM
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@StarWars2nd At your early stage, you might want a speed set for him before offense. Thrawn going fast is generally very important. He also isn’t the damage dealer so offense sets aren’t so important for him.
However, with zeta on unique and leading an empire squad, he will be countering a lot and the offense boost would make those counters count and his speed wouldn’t be as important.
In summary if he isn’t 150 speed leading empire, just go speed. As fat as you can get him.
StarWars2nd
38 posts Member
January 19, 2018 1:15PM
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Ah right i see i see. Thanks for the help.
Just a quick question, Would i not want him to be slower so that fracture lasts longer? If he is fast he will be taking more turns and fracture will be gone?
I'm completely new to Thrawn so i wouldn't really know just going by what i've read about this abilities.
Don't really know how best to use him so your idea is probably best but just wanted to ask that question. Thanks again!
Billcarson66
852 posts Member
January 19, 2018 1:58PM
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It’s hard to keep him in fracture without an empire squad around him....so it comes down to the squad around him for his speed needs.
StarWars2nd
38 posts Member
January 19, 2018 3:00PM
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Ah i understand now yes.
Speed is best basically unless i have a proper setup built around him.
Do i go for speed secondaries or do i need to have a soeed set of 4 also?
Billcarson66
852 posts Member
January 19, 2018 3:20PM
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Speed secondaries and a speed set is best.
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Woodroward
3749 posts Member
January 19, 2018 4:15PM
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There's really 2 things to consider in Crit damage vs Offense mods: Crit Chance, and the value of your offense primaries/secondaries.
Firstly, in no situation (outside of a Nihilus lead) is an offense triangle better than a crit damage triangle. So to begin with the damages we are comparing are 186% crit damage vs. 216% crit damage, a difference of 30% crit damage. 100/(186/30) = a 16.12% increase in damage from crit damage mods. This is modified by your crit chance, but we'll get back to that.
The value of an offense set decreases as you pile more and more offense primaries and secondaries on that toon. To begin with, we are guaranteed to have at least one offense primary. This means that our initial offense before the set is counted is 105.88 100/(105.88/10) and is actually a 9.45% increase in damage. This means that our breakeven point before more offense primaries and secondaries are added in is 100/(16.12/9.45) = 58.8% crit chance.
Conversely, as each offense primary and secondary gets added it increases the damage that the crit damage set will provide, compared to the offense set where each one lowers the value of the damage.
Now if we are analyzing the difference between these two, it is probably because we are trying to maximize their damage, which means we are going to have a lot more offense on them than just the one primary. So let's see where the breakpoint lies when we have 3 offense primaries and a crit damage triangle: 100/((16.12 * (105.88/11.76 +1))/(100/(117.64/10))) 16.12 * ((105.88/11.76)/100 + 1) = 17.57% This is the value of a crit damage set with 3 offense primaries and a crit damage triangle. 100/(117.64/10)= 8.50 This is the value of the offense set with 3 offense primaries. So the breakeven point for crit chance with 3 offense primaries is 100/(17.57/8.5) = 48.37% crit chance to break even.
So lets do some numbers here to see what maximum possible offense primary and secondaries with a crit damage triangle will get us as the breakeven point. I will make some assumptions here. Firstly I will use 3000 damage as the base since that seems pretty average. Secondly I will assume that around 150 is the max flat offense secondary since I haven't seen much higher than that. Finally I will assume that 1.6% is around the max %offense secondary since I haven't seen much higher than that.
So at maximum offense, the offense set would make 3000 * 1.2244 + 6(150) + (3000 * .1) = 4873.2 offense. 100/(4873.2/300)= 6.156% increase in damage.
At maximum offense, the crit damage set would be (3000 * 1.2244 + 900)/(3000 * 1.0588) * 16.12 = 23.21% increase in damage.
So finally, 100/(23.21/6.156)= 26.52% crit for the breakeven point in this scenario.
What to takeaway from this: Offense mods are better in the beginning when you don't have a lot of crit chance or offense secondaries, but as you get more and bigger offense and crit chance secondaries, crit damage becomes better.
To put it another way, offense mods are better when you have a young account, but crit damage mods are likely to be better if you have an older account.
Been playing since Dec. 8 2016.
chionophile
1097 posts Member
January 19, 2018 4:28PM
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DedrickRogue wrote: »
Base character has 150% CD, add a triangle it's 36% more meaning 186% CD, full set adds 30% bring CD to 216%
You're saying with a higher CD %, you also need a higher CC % to even out to offense, correct? Because that isn't how common sense says it works. You wouldn't need to Crit hit as often because your Crits that do land are doing +66% damage over a "normal" critical, which means you can land less crits to get the same total damage output.
Either way, I'm out. Too late for this much math.
I was struggling with understanding Anakin's posts as well, as you're right, it does defy common sense (and honestly, Anakin didn't explain it very well). I set up a spreadsheet showing average damage under each of the five situations (No mods, Offense Mods no CD triangle, Offense Mods with CD triangle, CD mods no CD triangle, CD mods with CD triangle), assuming 1000 damage on a non crit, unmodified hit.
The graph makes it clear what's happening - your average damage from an increased crit doesn't catch up to the damage increase from offense mods (which increases both critical damage and base damage, unlike an increased crit, which only increases critical damage) until you hit a certain critical chance threshold. The key is remembering that offense mods increase your crit damage as well as your base damage.
crzydroid
7364 posts Moderator
January 19, 2018 4:39PM
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I think when you hold primaries and secondaries as equal and look at just the set bonus, the break even point is 33%.
Obviously on Nihilus lead Sith teams or when you're expecting to face a lot of crit immunity, offense is better as well.
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Woodroward
3749 posts Member
January 19, 2018 4:56PM
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There's also leader abilities to take into account. An HK or JTR lead means that crit damage is better without question. Having R2 in your comp also increases the value of Crit damage mods. A lead like Wedge or Vader that increases offense will actually raise the value of the offense set though.
There's no real easy answer to this question. There are so many factors that can change it, it is really tough. The only real way to tell is to do the math like I just did with each of the mod setups you plan to use.
Most people aren't willing to do that though, so I would say that unless you have uber offensive crit damage mods, or crit chance/damage gains from a leader ability that offense mods are likely to be better.
Been playing since Dec. 8 2016.
GulSkiVader
147 posts Member
January 19, 2018 5:31PM
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@StarWars2nd , when your team is using specials, I believe that adds time to Thrawn and fractured toon. You want a fast Thrawn to apply stun/fracture/heal and dispel. Once he's in fracture mode, it will slow down due to the team's specials. Fast Thrawn is very good.
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GulSkiVader
147 posts Member
January 19, 2018 5:33PM
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@StarWars2nd , when empire allies use specials that will slow TM for both Thrawn and victim. Read ebb & flow.
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